Sunak forced to defend National Insurance hike in TV debate

Kemi Badenoch told the audience of floating voters on the Channel 4 show that the Prime Minister was “sometimes” honest.

The others prevaricated. “I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt for as long as possible,” Rishi Sunak said. “And ultimately, I reached the conclusion that I couldn't and that's why I resigned.”

Penny Mordaunt said there had been “some really severe issues.”

“And I think that he has paid a price for that,” she added.

Liz Truss - often seen as the continuity candidate and backed by Mr Johnson’s most loyal supporters - said the Prime Minister had been “very clear himself that he made mistakes.”

Pushed on the question, she added: “Well, he himself has said that some of the statements issued by were not 100 per cent accurate. So I take that at face value.”

Mr Sunak was asked about his fixed penalty notice. He was fined for attending the surprise birthday party held for Mr Johnson in the Cabinet room in Downing Street in June 2020.

It came after Mr Tugendhat said there was a problem with having someone who broke the law in No 10.

“Of course there's a problem with people being asked to obey rules that those who make them don't obey,” he said. “Of course, that's the problem. We all know it's a problem. This isn't really a secret I'm telling you, I'm afraid."

Mr Sunak replied: “It was a mistake and I apologised for it at the time and I apologise for it again, I wish it had never happened. The reason I was in that cabinet room, minutes early for a meeting was because I was there every day, working on Covid and working incredibly hard to make sure that we deliver things like the furlough scheme, which protected over 10 million people's jobs."

Mr Johnson’s presence was also felt in a fiery discussion on tax, with Mr Tugendhat claiming that Mr Sunak had told him the rise in National Insure was because the “boss wanted it.”

The former chancellor said that he too had backed the hike as a means of funding health and social care. 

He also defended his record as the other candidates criticised him for not cutting tax.

He told the Channel 4 debate: “We cannot make it worse, inflation is the enemy that makes everyone poorer. It erodes your savings, it erodes your living standards, it means that those of you who have mortgages will see your interest rates go up higher and higher.

“I don’t think the responsible thing to do right now is launch into some unfunded spree of borrowing and more debt, that will just make inflation worse, it will make the problem longer.”

Ms Truss said the UK's high inflation was because "of our monetary policy, that we haven’t been tough enough on the monetary supply, that’s the way that I would address that issue”.

Mr Sunak told her: “Borrowing your way out of inflation isn’t a plan, it’s a fairytale.”

Ms Truss responded: “I think it is wrong to put taxes up.”

Ms Mordaunt said her economic platform was "not based on tax and spend, it’s based on growth and competition.”

She has promised to cut VAT on fuel and increase income tax thresholds in line with inflation – something Mr Sunak said would cost around £15 billion.

 “Even the pledges you’ve made are double-digit billion pound promises. The best way to help everyone, the best way to make sure that they have money in their pocket, is to get a grip of inflation, and that should be everybody’s priority because that’s the thing that’s going to erode everyone’s living standards,” he said.

Ms Mordaunt replied: “Two things, Rishi, that you haven’t realised – that is, I know you know people are going to need more help this autumn, but actually people need help now and you are going to have to do something on taxation.

“Next April we are going to be one of the most uncompetitive nations in terms of our tax competitiveness … that cannot be allowed to happen.”

Mr Truss told Mr Sunak: “You cannot tax your way to growth.”

The women in the race also clashed over UK government policy on self-ID - the process which allows someone to have their gender identity recognised as their legal gender without any medical intervention.

Ms Mordaunt said she had never been a supporter. “I can’t imagine why people are not comprehending what I say and have been regurgitating this issue for weeks and weeks, but I’m happy to state my position and evidence to back it up.

“I took through a consultation looking at the Gender Recognition Act, I’ve never been in favour of self-ID.

“I would have made the system much better but I would not have divorced it from healthcare.

“I’m a woman, I’m a biological woman, if I had a mastectomy I would still be a woman – I’m a biological woman in every cell in my body.

“I’m also legally a woman and some people who are born male go through a process and are issued at the end of that process with a legal document in their new gender, but that does not mean they are identical to me.”

However, Ms Badenoch said she found it “difficult” to accept her colleague’s account

“When I took over as equalities minister in 2020, the policy that was being pushed was self-ID,” she said.

“So, I don’t understand how that would have changed unless someone else did it in between.

“I didn’t work with Penny, but my understanding was that the previous minister who had done the role had wanted self-ID, and that was something that I reversed with Liz.”

Ms Mordaunt retaliated, saying: “That is not correct and this will all be on record in Government.”

Ms Badenoch replied: “It is on record.”

Ms Truss refused to be drawn directly.

“I’m not going to go around criticising other candidates in this race," she said.

“What I will be clear about is I started in the women and equalities job.

“There was a plan to move forward on self-ID.

“I believe in women’s rights, I also believe that transgender should be treated with respect.

“So, what I did is I changed the outcome of that work so that we were able to make the process simpler and kinder, but not move ahead with self-ID, which I think is the right position.”

Though the winner eventually goes on to become Prime Minister, the public are still, at this stage, only observers. 

It is up to MPs to whittle the five candidates down to two, with Tory party members then selecting the winner. 

The new leader should be in place by September 5. 

Last Thursday, Mr Sunak picked up the support of 101 MPs, Ms Mordaunt 83, Ms Truss 64, Ms Badenoch 49 and Tom Tugendhat 32.