Serial killer catcher David Swindle on what makes people kill

Following a campaign south of the border to make it harder for perpetrators to be granted parole if they won’t reveal where their victims are buried, legislation, known as Helen’s Law, came into force in January 2021.

Read more: Peter Tobin dead: Serial killer's death 'could lead to answers'

Marie McCourt, the mother of Helen McCourt who was murdered by Ian Simms in 1988, tirelessly campaigned for years. Pub landlord Simms murdered insurance clerk Helen McCourt, 22, as she walked home from work in February 1988.

He repeatedly refused to reveal the location of her body. He was paroled in 2020 and died in 2022.

David Swindle returns to Glasgow his former beat. Photo by Colin Mearns. (Image: Newsquest)

However, a similar bid in Scotland stalled and has left families limbo. What was known as Suzanne’s Law after Suzanne Pilley, who was murdered by her colleague, David Gilroy, in 2010, was proposed as legislation to overhaul parole rules so convicted killers would be kept in prison if they failed to reveal the whereabouts of their victim’s body.

Gilroy, who was given a life sentence and ordered to serve a minimum of 18 years in prison, has never revealed the location of Ms Pilley’s body.

Suzanne Pilley was murdered in 2010. Her body has never been found. (Image: Newsquest)

However, the proposed legislation, did not materialise. In a parliamentary answer in 2021, the then Justice Secretary and now First Minster, Humza Yousaf, said there would be a “full rewrite of the Parole Board (Scotland) Rules 2001 this year” which would include the provision.

Now, crime expert David Swindle, who snared serial killer Peter Tobin, hopes it is something that will be reviewed to help grieving families.

Read more: Glasgow cop who snared serial killer Peter Tobin leads team helping crime victims abroad

It is one of the topics which he delves into as part of his nationwide tour The Makings of a Murderer which comes to Glasgow Royal Concert Hall on April 25.

“There have been quite a few no body murders in Scotland. Initially with the Peter Tobin case, yes we found three victims, but Tobin killed others I have no doubt about it. There are high profile cases such as the murders of Suzanne Pilley, from Edinburgh, Margaret Fleming in Inverkip, Alison McGarrigle in Largs, Renee McRae and Arlene Fraser – these bodies have never been found.

“People know their loved ones have been killed but where are the bodies? A strong campaign in England, Helen’s Law, was led by Marie McCourt, the mother of Helen. It is simple - no body no parole. Her killer Simm was released from prison and died. He has taken his secret to the grave.

“In Scotland there has been some activity, Suzanne’s Law in relation to Suzanne Pilley. And while there has been a push towards something like Helen’s Law in Scotland, as far as I am aware there hasn’t been much progress.

“I’m going round the UK raising awareness of Helen’s Law, but it would be great if there could be something around ‘Suzanne’s Law’. There is a lot of change in Scotland with regard to the government so hopefully there will be a change around victims’ law.”

Mr Swindle embarked on a 130 plus date tour, including several Scottish dates, and has had audiences enthralled with his expertise from his 34 year career with Scotland’s largest police force.

“There is a fascination for true crime, murderers, serial killers, but also sometimes there is too much of a focus on the killer. The balance I have is let’s never forget about these killers and what they have done but we should never forget about the victims,” he said. “I touch on high profile cases in the UK and a few Scottish cases and there are certain themes which feature throughout that.”

Marie McCourt campaigned for Helen's Law in memory of her murdered daughter Helen. (Image: PA)

For his audiences there is a real interest and passion in true crime and cold cases and Mr Swindle said he has been somewhat surprised by number of people coming along.

He added: “In Aberdeen we had 1700 people. There are huge amounts of people interested in this genre. There is a perception that true crime audiences are just focusing on the killers and the horrors of it. A lot of the people who come have a genuine interest in why a killer does what they do. The questions vary – some are about the killer and why they do it or questions about me. How do I cope? What were the most difficult cases. And also they ask how do I feel dealing with murders.”

Mr Swindle, who uses his expertise for his Victims Abroad initiative which helps families of victims of crime overseas, served with the former Strathclyde Police for 34 years and worked on and solved several high profile murders.

He led the investigation which snared serial killer Peter Tobin for the murder of Angelika Kluk in Glasgow in 2006. Mr Swindle set up Operation Anagram which took a detailed look at Tobin’s past. Tobin, who died last year, was investigated over the disappearances of Bathgate teenager Vicky Hamilton and 18-year-old hitchhiker Dinah McNicol, who were last seen in 1991.

Peter Tobin's victims Angelika Kluk, Vicky Hamilton and Dinah McNicol. (Image: PA)

Their remains were discovered in a house in Margate where Tobin lived in the 90s and he was convicted of both murders.

“I dealt with hundreds of murder cases in my career and now having left the police, I am still using my skills to help families of victims. I’ve been assisting the families of Kirsty Maxwell and Craig Mallon, who both died abroad, in their quest for answers. For me, I will never stop doing what I do because it is about being able to help people.

“There is always the question - is a killer born evil and that is something that sometimes I say yes, but then there are the complications with issues of nature and nurture. Is it their surroundings? Were they born evil or develop evil and I delve into that in the show.

“People are fascinated about the complexities of why someone kills. I have never grasped that – I have never understood why one human being kills another.”

A Scottish Governments spokesperson said: “We are committed to ensuring victims’ rights are at the heart of the justice system and have already taken forward proposals which relate to the Suzanne’s Law campaign.

“We added a specific provision in the Parole Board (Scotland) Rules 2022 to make it clear that ‘failure to reveal a victim’s remains’ is a matter that the Board may take into account. The new rules came into force on 1 April 2023.”

The Makings of a Murderer is running across the UK including eight other Scottish venues. For tickets, show dates and more information click here.