Pro-life MPs launch bid to give Holyrood power on abortion laws

The amendment on abortion, which had been expected to be defeated, was not put to a vote.

However, it was debated by MPs.

Veteran Tory Sir Edward Leigh, who sits alongside the three MPs on the all-party parliamentary pro-life group, said Scotland has its own point of view which should be reflected in the Scottish Parliament, particularly on "moral maze" issues such as abortion.

The Gainsborough MP, who moved a separate amendment which would devolve powers on abortion and surrogacy, genetics, embryology and other health areas, said any "self-respecting parliament" should be allowed to deal with such issues.

Sir Edward suggested he would not push his proposal to a vote but highlighted the cross-party amendment signed by the other pro-life MPs.

But he insisted his pro-life views were "irrelevant" because the new devolution settlement is focused on creating a "real parliament".

Sir Edward said: "I suppose it's no secret that I will always take the pro-life argument, whether it's to do with capital punishment, or assisted suicide or abortion, I have my own views, I appreciate they are not the views of everyone in this place.

"My research assistant said, 'well is this wise, what would the Scottish Parliament decide? Would their views be more like us in the UK Parliament?'.

"And I said to him it's completely irrelevant what my views are, or what your views are, that's a value judgment, it's not for me to decide.

"Frankly I have no idea whether if the Scottish Parliament was allowed to decide the law of abortion, whether it would take more my view, pro-life view, to amend the Abortion Act or it wouldn't.

"I have no idea and it's none of my business. I would have thought a self-respecting parliament can and should be trusted to deal with abortion, especially as I understand that the Scottish Parliament already deals with assisted dying."

Sir Edward said he tabled his own amendment because he wanted to know why Scotland could not have the power to change abortion law in the country.

He said: "I wanted to have an explanation of why the Scottish Parliament is not going to be allowed under our Scotland Bill to debate or decide these matters.

"These matters are of course of vital interest to any nation.

"I will recall that whereas sometimes our debate, say on social security, when we're discussing spending extra billions of pounds, are extremely poorly attended relative to interest.

"As soon as we get into these, what I would call moral maze issues where people have strong personal views and there are often free votes, our Parliament really comes into its own.

"It's what makes a parliament and it's part of being a parliament.

"And the Scottish Parliament is in its essence, what we're trying to create is a real parliament, and Scotland may be a small nation but it is a proud nation and it has its own individual point of view, which I would have thought is best determined by the Scottish people through their Parliament."

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Meanwhile, former Scottish secretary Alistair Carmichael called for powers over Crown Estate land to be devolved directly to local island communities so they could generate more income from them.

Scotland's foreshore, seabed, fishing rights and other urban and rural state assets are currently managed by the Crown Estate, accountable to Westminster with revenues sent to the UK Treasury.

The Bill will devolve its revenues and accountability to the Scottish Parliament in Holyrood.

But Mr Carmichael said the land around islands would be better managed by local communities and so the powers should be devolved directly to them

Moving his own amendments to the Bill, the Liberal Democrat MP for Orkney and Shetland said: "It is I think manifestly the case that the seabed is a resource which is something which could be better managed and would be better managed if it were to be managed by the communities that were most directly affected.

"That would I think actually generate more income.

"There are a tremendous number of opportunities for generating income from the seabed, many of which are thwarted because the Crown Estate Commissioners over the years have taken a particularly narrow construction of the duties that they have under the Crown Estate Act."

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Conservative Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) moved an amendment to put in law the need for Scotland to continue contributing its share towards the costs of the monarchy.

He said this approach was better than relying on "generalised assurances of goodwill and good faith".

Mr Rees-Mogg, described as the MP for Downton Abbey by Labour's Jack Dromey, said: "The Sovereign Grant Act is an extraordinarily good way of funding the monarchy. It means that Her Majesty is actually the highest marginal tax rate payer in the country.

"The Queen pays a tax rate of 85% whereas nobody else pays more than 45%.

"The Crown Estates are taken from the Crown, or from the Queen, at the beginning of the reign and the revenue is then taken to the government.

"So the Queen subsidises her own government throughout her reign and that's not an unreasonable situation, but the Sovereign Grant Act returns it and that should be protected in any development of devolution."

He said the Crown should not be divided and attempts to split it were part of efforts to gain independence for Scotland.

Conservative former attorney general Dominic Grieve said the Crown Estate is indivisible, adding there is no reason why revenue from it should not be allocated in different ways - including to the Scottish government.

Speaking about the Bill, he later said: "It does strike me the end product is likely to be we have two Crown Estates north of the border, one part of which has been devolved - although what role this Parliament keeps in its fiduciary duty, as I'll describe it, to ensure its good management I'm not quite sure - and the possibility of a completely new one in future."

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On the Crown Estate, Alex Salmond, the SNP MP for Gordon, said: "It's not a question of reducing revenues but increasing economic activity.

"I represented for many years a fishing constituency and I can say to MPs the Crown Estate has not been a popular institution among many of our fishing communities. Many of our small harbours in particular found that the dues on the foreshore were extremely onerous.

"MPs will understand why there is a general desire to see such resources being applied to the economic benefit of local communities."

Turning to amendments on the minimum wage, Mr Salmond added: "Thousands of people across all our constituencies face a substantial reduction in their standard of living on the course the Chancellor has set himself.

"The Chancellor of the Exchequer says of course he wants to end this position where there is huge subsidies to a range of private sector employers.

"Can I say one approach a Scottish Government might take if we had control of the minimum wage legislation is to move quickly on the minimum wage up to the living wage, to therefore reduce in-work benefits by the early increase of wages, as opposed to the fate I think is in store for workers across our constituencies, to see the reduction of in-work benefits before there is any increase forthcoming in the wages."

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On adoption law, Shadow Scotland secretary Ian Murray said Labour would oppose the devolution of further powers.

He said: "We believe a woman's right to choose should be determined by robust medical evidence and not by where you live. There is no reason why a woman in Edinburgh should face a different experience to a woman in Exeter.

"Many would argue the system we currently have in place needs to be improved but this is best achieved within a UK framework and should be a debate separate from the constitution."

Challenged why the devolution of abortion powers should be different to that on assisted dying, which is already held in Scotland, Mr Murray added: "Devolution in a lot of instances isn't logical, in that sense.

"In actual fact that's how devolution works."

He continued: "The Smith Commission clearly stated, 'a process should be started immediately to consider the matter further'. This has not happened.

"The devolution of abortion law would mean the Scottish Parliament having to start from scratch. The law is established and operating effectively in the United Kingdom, it should continue to operate across the UK and be determined by the best clinical advice available."

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Mr Pugh said the proposal to devolve abortion law was "modest and rational" and would implement powers recommended by the Smith Commission.

The Lib Dem said the Scottish Parliament had already proven it could debate moral issues of this scale rationally and based on evidence.

He said: "When you survey it you've got to acknowledge that it's a modest and a rational proposal.

"The Smith Commission was minded to make abortion a devolved matter and this proposal aligns the Bill with the original intentions of the Smith Commission.

"A similar level of devolution is already available in Northern Ireland and gives the Scottish Parliament the same rights as with regard to euthanasia and every other health matter."

He went on: "The Scottish Parliament and Scottish politicians have proven themselves eminently capable of debating thorny, complex and controversial moral topics without acrimony, maturely, lucidly and in an evidence based way.

"That was evident in the recent debate they had on euthanasia.

"I think we acknowledge that a Scottish life is worth no less than any other life but regulating how and when life is terminated in Scotland can justifiably be done in my view in the Scottish Parliament by a Scottish authority and is done throughout Europe differently by all nations.

"I rebut entirely the previous allegation made by the member from the Labour Despatch Box that they would do this not in the light of robust medical evidence, they will certainly take into account robust medical evidence."

The SNP backed the proposal to devolve abortion law, with Stewart McDonald (Glasgow South) saying it would give Scotland the opportunity to strengthen a woman's right to choose.

He said: "I can of course understand the concerns from the organisations who released the joint statement but I would also say that we've proven ourselves in Scotland, we've proven ourselves to understand the weight of these arguments, we've proven that we can indeed handle them in a sensitive fashion.

"It;s also been suggested that my friends in the Scottish National Party and I will be choosing tonight between nationalism and feminism.

"I find that a false choice. Indeed I find it an offensive statement.

"It's a reductionist analysis, it's a crass comment.

"I want this power not just because I want all powers to come to Scotland but I want to improve and protect a woman's right to choose and to access quality healthcare.

"I believe we can do that and I want to make progress on it at the earliest opportunity, that is my motivation."

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Scottish Secretary David Mundell gave an "absolute commitment" to reflect on "genuine amendments" proposed by the SNP and other parties that could improve the Bill and to change the Bill at report stage, its next step in the Commons.

But he disagreed with Mr Carmichael's proposals, saying it would be wrong to dictate to the Scottish Parliament what it should devolve to local communities.

Mr Mundell said the Government did not consider devolving abortion powers "appropriate" at this time but work is ongoing to consider whether it would be appropriate at a future date, as recommended by the Smith Commission

The Tory minister said: "Some amendments I accept are genuine amendments and could, if adopted make the Bill better.

"Some amendments have not been genuine amendments.

"We spent a long time debating full fiscal autonomy when it was quite clear that the SNP, Scottish Government, didn't want to see those amendments passed.

"Now we've got a series of amendments which have been laid before Parliament over the four days.

"I'm giving an absolute commitment that we will reflect on those amendments and that we will come back at report stage to this House with amendments to the Bill."

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On the abortion proposals, Mr Mundell said the UK and Scottish governments have established a process to consider the issue in line with the Smith Commission recommendations.

He said: "Discussions are at an early stage and accepting this amendment would pre-empt those discussions but as has been said a number of times in this debate, there is no reason why the Scottish Parliament should not be able to decide an issue of this significance because it has demonstrated it's ability to do so on numerous other significant issues."